“Riverside Talks” - An Extended Interview

The joint authors are Luis Palau, the well-known Argentine evangelist, and Zhao Qizheng, former vice-mayor of Shanghai and now vice-chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference, as well as dean of the School of Journalism and Communication at the prestigious Renmin (People’s) University in Beijing.

The dialogue took place over two days in Shanghai in November 2005. The two men soon established a friendly relationship which comes over clearly in the book. In the Foreword Luis Palau states:

“Ever since I was a young boy growing up in Argentina, I have heard stories about the amazing country of China. I have dreamt about China, its peoples, its history and its culture. I love China… I believe with my whole heart that God loves China. I believe he has a special message for China and wants nothing more than to share his love with the entire nation…. As a Christian evangelist I believe wholeheartedly in the Bible—God’s Word—and its relevance and power to transform our lives. It is my privilege and responsibility to introduce Jesus Christ, his teachings and his gift of eternal life to the world.”

Zhao Qizheng states: “Dr. Palau is a theologian and religious leader in the United States. He is knowledgeable, honest and warm-hearted. I respect him…. I believe that in-depth understanding is possible as long as there is a will to communicate….. I have discovered that my trend of thought and Dr. Palau’s are quite different. While he believes that the laboratory verifying the existence of God lies in our heart—in other words, when the heart affirms God’s existence, one will be able to communicate with him. I believe that this laboratory exists independent of our heart and only when we have verified the existence of God can we communicate with him.”

No meeting of minds there, then! However, it is not to be expected that a relatively short dialogue would lead to either man converting to atheism or Christianity. Nevertheless, they appear to have made a good start as can be seen from the seven topics which they discussed in some detail:

1. On the Bible and God
2. On the Creation
3. On Religion and the Spirit
4. On Religious Beliefs in China
5. On Chinese and Western Culture and Philosophy
6. On Religion and Science
7. On Religion and Social Harmony

In the first section Zhao admits to having read the Bible (mainly as an English textbook) and reduces the ‘kernel’ of Christianity to a “few basic points, like the Newtonian laws”: “I suppose these would be enough. One, God is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient. God is perfectly good. Two, because of his original sin, man has difficulty communicating with God. Three, God therefore sends Jesus to communicate with man. Four, man must not try to design his own fate but should follow the guidance of Jesus and the Bible.”

Palau commends him, calling this a “perfect summary of the main points of the Bible”. Zhao, however, still sees the Bible as a ‘Christian classic,’ as well as a history book and good literature, formulating many ethical standards for people, then and now.
Palau agrees but goes further, stressing the Bible is part of God’s total revelation to man. “God reveals himself through creation, the beauty of the world. … secondly, God has revealed himself personally…. Jesus Christ is the visible image of the invisible God. When a scientist like you is thinking ‘I want to look at concrete human things so I can understand them,’ here comes Jesus who says, ‘Look at me and you’ve actually seen the character of God.’” He stresses that “the Bible never really contradicts the true findings of science.”

Zhao sees Christianity as a significant improvement on primitive religions or witchcraft, but sees it rather as wish fulfillment on the part of the authors. He admits that although he has read the Bible he is not a believer because “I cannot understand God… God’s existence is beyond our perception and experience. I can only understand what exists—what is concrete and substantive. I have no idea what God looks like. Consequently, I cannot understand such a metaphysical concept.”

Here Zhao reveals his basic (Marxist) materialism, which he mistakenly equates with scientific reasoning.

Both men bend over backwards to be polite to each other. For this reason one has the sense that they hold back from really in-depth analysis of each of the topics. Thus the book may disappoint some people who are looking for something much more profound. Because of the wide-ranging nature of the topics covered, one needs to look elsewhere for detailed materials from a Christian point of view which would satisfy Chinese intellectuals.

Mr. Zhao appears to argue from the typical standpoint of many educated Chinese leaders today. His thinking takes for granted the standard presuppositions of Marxism and also, although he is sympathetic to Dr. Palau personally, the standard prejudices against the Christian faith. This comes out, for instance, in his comments on the building of new places of worship in the new Pudong district of Shanghai:

“We built the church in Pudong because we thought there would be more and more people coming from abroad and we should satisfy their needs. At the same time, taking into consideration the needs of the local people, we also built one Daoist temple and one mosque.”

This reveals a widespread prejudice and misunderstanding about the growth of Christianity in China. Recent statistics released in 2005 by the TSPM reveal there are at least 187,000 Protestants in Shanghai —far above the 50,000 or more Hui Chinese Muslims in the city. There surely must be large numbers of local Christians in Pudong—but Mr. Zhao ignores them, taking note only of Muslims and Daoists.

When Palau presses home the argument that many atheistic writers write of their angst and inner loneliness, Zhao can only say that “it doesn’t mean all atheists are lonely”—a rather weak rebuttal.

Zhao also considers Confucius to be an atheist, which seems to be a serious misreading of the evidence. Confucius, admittedly, stressed the importance of human relationships in this world, but he never rejected ‘Heaven’ (Tian) or ‘God on High’ (Shangdi). Even if he did not see this supernatural power to be a personal God in the Old Testament sense, proper reverence was to be given to it. Professor Rodney Taylor of the University of Colorado states accurately in his important book The Religious Dimensions of Confucianism:

“Heaven for the Confucian tradition is not thought of, as some have argued, as an abstract philosophical absolute devoid of religious meaning. In the classical Confucian tradition, heaven functions as a religious authority or absolute, often theistic in its portrayal.”

Matteo Ricci, the famous Jesuit missionary to China in the 17th century, would have agreed. It was the neo-Confucianism of the Song dynasty—1,500 years after Confucius—which pushed Confucianism in a more agnostic and abstract direction.
This view of Confucianism as an agnostic philosophy has powerfully influenced Chinese intellectuals for a century or so—certainly since the May Fourth Movement of 1919. It has been taken up uncritically by Marxist scholars and leads inevitably to the view stated categorically by Mr. Zhao that “religion has never been dominant in China.” This is true in the narrower sense that religion never dominated China in the same way as Catholicism and the pope dominated medieval Europe. However, it is quite false if taken more widely to mean that the Chinese people are not ‘religious.’ Even a cursory glance at the post-Mao situation shows a quite extraordinary revival of Buddhism, Daoism and folk-religion on every hand, not to say various cults such as Falungong, Eastern Lightning and many more. It is rather ironic that it is Palau who has to point out to Zhao that in actual fact “there are so many in China who actually are believers in Jesus as well as other religions”!

Palau appears to take seriously the claim made by a TSPM professor that tombs of Christians dating as far back as 92 AD have been discovered in China, long before the Nestorians arrived in 635 AD. So far as I know, no serious scholars in China or overseas have confirmed this claim, the evidence for which remains very thin.

It is good to read that Palau challenged Zhao personally with the claims of the gospel:
“Jesus says: ‘Mr Zhao if you will open your heart to me I will come into your life, forgive all your mistakes and all your sins and give you peace in your conscience. I will send my Spirit into your life. I will give you assurance of eternal life. I will answer your prayers.’”

Zhao’s response? “If I have a laboratory for testing the existence of God I will say to Jesus: ‘If you really exist, please reveal yourself. Give me a signal to indicate your existence.’ But he will not answer me.”

And therein lies the tragedy of so many Chinese intellectuals. Christianity is rejected because of deep-seated Marxist presuppositions. Faith is seen as an academic exercise. It takes the deep working of the Holy Spirit to open minds and hearts to the existence of God and to convict of personal sin. Let us pray that this book will be widely used to awaken serious questions in the minds of many such, which will lead to genuine heart-searching and eventually to faith in Jesus Christ.

The book is produced separately in Chinese and English editions. (The English edition sells at 48RMB whereas the Chinese is only 38RMB). I bought my copy in the main bookstore in Wangfujing in Beijing. It is beautifully illustrated with photos of modern China and of Chinese churches and temples. It lends itself to use as an evangelistic tool as a basis for serious discussion of the gospel with Chinese students and intellectuals. Non-Chinese speakers can use the English edition while giving the Chinese one to their friends.

Full details of the book:
Riverside Talks—a Friendly Dialogue between an Atheist and a Christian.
Zhao Qizheng and Luis Palau.
New World Press, Beijing.
ISBN: 7-80228-144-X/B.004
Not available from OMF Books.

Copyright 2006 OMF International